What is the Artist's Alley?

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Yohrue

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Posts: 309

(03/04/08 01:49 AM)

Artist Alley Staff

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I think this thread as already altered it's original course as we had already discussed what AN's alley is technically defined as and as to what reasons. Right now, we'll put the rest of the information on review and I will discuss this with the exec staff as to what actions we can do to avoid this in the future.

The rules for 2008 currently will remain in play, and we'll consider the changes for 2009.

Falcon: For future references, please do not get too personal with your replies to the individuals on this board. I will not tolerate any offending comments or aggressive remarks. It's for amiability's sake.

Jessica Simon
AN Artist Alley Director
kouken_sasarai[at]hotmail[dot]com

Lroy

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Posts: 12

(03/04/08 02:00 AM)

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sunhawk girl wrote:
As I am unfamiliar with programming guest panels overall (I've only seen a handful of panels over the years, being generally stuck at my table the whole con LOL), I am only aware that they are a chance for an artist to speak about their work and answer questions. Are they allowed to sell art during that panel? I don't recall ever hearing anything like that. And my other thought is, unless you really are successful enough that your name would draw people, does having a panel entail the same sort of crowd you would get by having a table? I mean, strictly speaking in terms of time, most panels are an hour or two and that's nothing compared to the AA table hours.

They don't sell things at the panels. Guests like Scott get their own table near Artist Alley (at least he has the past two years). From there, he did free sketches, met with fans, and sold merch (in his case t-shirts and posters).

But when Scott was invited to Anime North as a guest the first time (which was 2006), he was already fairly well-known (and it helps that he lives nearby).

AkitoSouma

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Posts: 27

(03/04/08 02:52 AM)

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I'm skipping through stuff randomly...

Regarding applying as a programming guest, of course your popularity in your field is a big plus. But if you can offer something unique to Anime North that will make attending the con a memorable experience, then they would consider you as well. Professional artists, for example, can do a workshops based on their experiences that will definitely raise the interest of amateur artists... interesting real-life topics like "How to establish yourself as an independent published artist". I'm sure artists in the amateur level would appreciate and would love to attend informative workshops like that . And in exchange for your time, programming guests are given special perks by the con. As a policy, we don't pay our guests for appearance fees because of our non-profit status. So AN does compensate guests through other means, aside from promotion, publicity, a nice space in the resume, and a great weekend... artists guests like Steve Bennett, Ben Dunn and Scott Ramsomair are given Corporate Tables where they can exhibit their work. Mind you, technically, you're not supposed to sell stuff from the corporate tables... but we're willing to turn a blind eye if the guest artists want to have books, posters, & other merchandise they have conveniently at place for fans who want to get an autograph but don't want to go through the long line ups at the Dealer's Room.

Incidentally, I don't know a lot of professional artists who are successful enough to be published by a big name company, does that come up a lot?

Believe it or not, yes. And we've had lots of artists guests in the past. (Aside from the usual suspects, Steve Bennett & Ben Dunn ^_^.). But it wasn't until Scott Ramsomair that we had a big response from fans about local guest artists. We're currently working on getting a Vancouver-based professional artist, who has work published in a big name book publisher that releases manga and manga inspired books, and who coincidently, was simply inquiring on how to get an artist alley table a week or two ago... on getting her in as a programming guest. We'll announce who it is once we have everything finalized.

Again, I will probably meet impending death when she sees me next... but a certain Artist Alley Coordinator, who does not like boasting her accomplishments, is actually a great resource if you are an amateur artist wanting to go professional as she is a professional artist herself. Though you won't find her published art in Canada as her art is published in a *cough*boylove*cough* comic book company from in another country and she uses an assumed name when penning art she's ashamed to show her parents. I always tease her whatever will she do if Yaoi Press actually succeeds in acquiring the books from the company she works for and bring her art back to North America...

I admit I have no idea why permits are related to the US, do we not have Canadian permits? (I am enjoying revealing myself as a complete rube but hey, if I don't ask, I'll never learn LOL)
Also, the IRS punishes people for not making money at an event, is that what you are saying? Why do they deny you a permit?

Yes, Canada does require vendors to have permits or licenses. I don't know how dealers room works, and how they enforce this... but as far as I know... if you are a vendor, its a given that you must have a sales permit or license to sell your merchandise. In the US, they're really strict with what kind of money flows in and out. It's not punishment for not making money, permits are more of a way of monitoring who is doing business where in the US... and if they're doing business, are they giving us our share of the profits? For an foreigner who applies for a temporary sales permit every year for the past ten years... and they report zero earnings... for an IRS guy who only looks at the permit and not necessarily what the permit is for... it looks really suspicious. In their POV, how do you know that this foreigner isn't some terrorist laundering money?

So what, cheques and money orders are right out as well? *chuckle* I do think you are making a mistake in suggesting that those who can take different payment means are automatically in the category of those trying to cheat the system. The AA is for artists, those who make things themselves, if they meet that criteria, why pry into how they get paid?

I don't think cheques or money orders are a problem. That depends on the artists' preference on how they want to be paid. But Credit Cards are a different story. There are such things as manual credit card... sliding thingies with the carbon copy forms (I don't know what they're called). You don't need electricity to use them. Why is a credit card paying system a different story... because in order to acquire such an account, you need to be registered as a business. Visa, Mastercard, Amex, etc... they will not issue those to any ordinary joe smoe. So if you think about it, the "artists" selling stuff through this system is really a business. If you charge stuff through a credit card, there's a paper trail that needs to be filed to Revenue Canada. You have to declare all credit card sales as part of your income. Thus the reason why if you go to Kikiwai to buy your regular anime hit and they would only give you a "no tax" discount is if you pay cash. Cash without receipts does not leave a paper trail. And to quote Tim Horton's cash register... if you didn't get a receipt, your *something sale* is free (i.e. no receipt, no record of sale ever happening).

As far as I know, the "professional" artists who inquired about this and Jess has already talked to are all agreeable to the conditions that if they were to get an artist alley table, they will be self-represented, i.e. they won't sell stuff that is available commercially. And these people who have contacted her privately are people who do draw for a living. So I personally don't understand why this issue is persisting in the message boards. If someone out there still has a problem with this situation, please come forward and let Jess know your concerns. No offense... because the way I see it... there's one person saying one thing on the message board and sees this as a problem, but there are like ten other people who e-mail her privately and don't see this as a problem. And personally, I don't really know if we're just explaining ourselves to death for the sake of one vocal person in the message board. And to be quite honest, instead of Jess and the others working on speeding the registration process, they're concentrating their energies on trying to "fix" this issue.

If you guys want to have an artist alley this year, you guys will have to find a way to help the staff move forward instead of blocking them with this. For sure that there will be changes that need to be implemented next year. But at some point, all you artists need to make a decision if you're going to help make this work.

Regina Simon
Liaisons Director
Anime North 2008

sunhawk girl

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Posts: 23

(03/04/08 02:58 AM)

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It means if the participants in the venue are playing a role as a vendor as oppose to an artist promoting their skills as artists on the spot.

Okay, now I have to ask, what is a vendor defined as in this situation? Because I was under the impression that an artist selling their own work is not a vendor, not the in sense that a seller of retailed goods in the Dealer's room would be.

That's actually a Canadian tax I'm taking about, not an American one. I'm unsure as to what the American tax law is for vendors, aside California, Seattle, and Baltimore venues all require it and people get arrested if you do not have the permit to sell in that specific area for that specific date. We would then have to follow a similar step, I'm just unsure as to the proceedings of it aside registering yourself as a business with the government.

But not all artists qualify as a small business under Canadian law, as I understand it, which that you have to make a certain amount yearly to qualify.

You know.. Professional artists who have appeared in the alley have not given us a problem as most of them do abide with the original intention of merely promoting themselves and their art and not specifically on mass sales. This is where I get confused as where you get the no-professional artists rule. They seem to understand the situation... but I am concerned why you insist on this. Is this specifically because of crafts in general?

Mass sales? Where did you get mass sales from? I said I agreed with the other rules of the convention, which includes the whole "no more than 100 of anything" rule. I was protesting that people are saying artists that make money (any money at all since we haven't said any specific amount) at the convention shouldn't be there. I also did not protest the concept of artists using AA to promote themselves. And I was not the first person to bring up crafts and crafters, I was responding to what I have seen in other threads that suggested crafters and crafts were not welcome either, which I don't understand.

All Venues of business need a permit to make their sales though, so it's not limited to that area. We've only gotten away with it because we have been stating that the alley is not for profit.

I still don't understand how the intent of any individual in the AA defines the AA, it's the convention that defines the purpose of the AA and stays non-profit by not taking a percentage of the money made by the artists, at least as I understood their position in the past.

We can make the alley an extension of the dealers room, but this also means you guys will be paying the convention the same prices as the dealers. If you guys can't accept this decision as the terms are getting rather complicated as the years pass, in this case, are you guys willing to go for this option? Permits of course are acquired by applying for them from the Canadian Government. The cons do not sell them as you are only renting their space to participate in their events.

Before I answer your question, WHY do the dealer's spots cost that much more? If it's not for the extra space, what exactly is that extra money covering? And why would we want to make the alley an extension? And what does a permit cost? Are there different ones, one more for an artist than a retailer? We aren't talking about you proposing a single, uncomplicated decision, you are describing a massive overhaul that we do not know the details of nor what all the options are. At least I don't! I can't say what I want or what would be better until I have the full story.

But again, this is not the case for all crafts.

This is not the case for all art, there is nothing inherent about the art of craft that makes it more prone to legal issues, I mean I don't protest if you use the phrase "cosplay crafters" but to use such a broad term like "crafters" or "craft" that applies to so many different artforms and methodologies is inaccurate, not to mention unfair to crafters who do none of those things but are being included because they make things with their hands.

So in the end, the venue would still have to cover their bases as yes, we will be liable for allowing you to sell items in our venue. While we are renting the space to you, we still have rights to it. And while we are hosting it, we are liable for what the participants do in that space. So of course, we would pursue trying to protect ourselves as well in those conditions.

So why not remove that liability through the contract, the way that publishers do with the authors they publish or websites with the content they host?

Actually, they are. Because when something goes wrong with the artist's money, I'm the one who gets the e-mails. People take this very likely but it does become my business when the artists force me to become involved. And while you say not everyone is like that, unfortunately, a grand number of participants are. You can never represent a number of people accurately, which always makes things so complicated at times.

Why get involved? The contract between artist and customer is between them, not you. You are not legally liable for someone having a problem with an artwork, so tell them to take it up with the artist. Any artist who tries to get you involved should be ashamed of themselves. Their artwork is their responsibility, not something they can blame on anyone else.

You're right. Considering the grief and trouble I am getting from this, to the point that I'm truthfully already at my limit before the convention even starts, I've come to a decision to pursue the original intentions of the artist alley from when and how it first started. Things have gotten complicated and I will make an official announcement for 2009 on what will happen. For 2008 otherwise, we will continue with the current known rules and the slight changes and make an early announcement for the 2009 decision after the Convention this year.

I am sorry, it was not my intention to trouble you with my questions. I just do not know who else to ask these things.

~Sunhawk
Fantasy art and feathers - www.sunhawk.ca

sunhawk girl

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Posts: 24

(03/04/08 03:05 AM)

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Before I reply to anything else, I wanted to say that it's not my intention to force anyone's hand or get an all-encompassing official approval for everything. I'm cognizant of the fact that there is a lot at the con, not just AA, that the con turns an official blind eye towards and I appreciate that situation. Any comments I make about artists making money, I have been responding to the impression I get where people appear to feel negatively about artists who do well at their craft, that the more successful an artist gets, they are being made to feel less welcome in the AA. I know it's not easy to sort out the legalities and I respect those legalities, I just sometimes get protective of artists because they already have it pretty hard and it isn't easy to think that a place that I feel was meant to be supportive of all artists is in fact kinda particular about it. We're all struggling in one way or another, as artists, regardless of our "official statuses."

~Sunhawk
Fantasy art and feathers - www.sunhawk.ca

sunhawk girl

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Posts: 25

(03/04/08 03:25 AM)

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AkitoSouma said:

Regarding applying as a programming guest, of course your popularity in your field is a big plus. But if you can offer something unique to Anime North that will make attending the con a memorable experience, then they would consider you as well. Professional artists, for example, can do a workshops based on their experiences that will definitely raise the interest of amateur artists... interesting real-life topics like "How to establish yourself as an independent published artist". I'm sure artists in the amateur level would appreciate and would love to attend informative workshops like that . And in exchange for your time, programming guests are given special perks by the con. As a policy, we don't pay our guests for appearance fees because of our non-profit status. So AN does compensate guests through other means, aside from promotion, publicity, a nice space in the resume, and a great weekend... artists guests like Steve Bennett, Ben Dunn and Scott Ramsomair are given Corporate Tables where they can exhibit their work. Mind you, technically, you're not supposed to sell stuff from the corporate tables... but we're willing to turn a blind eye if the guest artists want to have books, posters, & other merchandise they have conveniently at place for fans who want to get an autograph but don't want to go through the long line ups at the Dealer's Room.

Good to know, thank you!

Believe it or not, yes. And we've had lots of artists guests in the past. (Aside from the usual suspects, Steve Bennett & Ben Dunn ^_^.). But it wasn't until Scott Ramsomair that we had a big response from fans about local guest artists. We're currently working on getting a Vancouver-based professional artist, who has work published in a big name book publisher that releases manga and manga inspired books, and who coincidently, was simply inquiring on how to get an artist alley table a week or two ago... on getting her in as a programming guest. We'll announce who it is once we have everything finalized.

I meant, artists trying to get in the AA who were successful enough to have their work sold by a big name company. I would think that artists that successful would not have trouble affording a Dealer's Room spot? I think in the end, when we talk professional and amateur, even though a professional is defined as one who does something for a living, those who aren't making enough of a living stay in the AA and the ones who do make enough get more space in the Dealer's room. Of course, there are still those trying to buck the system, but I think in general the system works.

Again, I will probably meet impending death when she sees me next... but a certain Artist Alley Coordinator, who does not like boasting her accomplishments, is actually a great resource if you are an amateur artist wanting to go professional as she is a professional artist herself. Though you won't find her published art in Canada as her art is published in a *cough*boylove*cough* comic book company from in another country and she uses an assumed name when penning art she's ashamed to show her parents. I always tease her whatever will she do if Yaoi Press actually succeeds in acquiring the books from the company she works for and bring her art back to North America...

Ha ha that's awesome! I heart boylove :3

Yes, Canada does require vendors to have permits or licenses. I don't know how dealers room works, and how they enforce this... but as far as I know... if you are a vendor, its a given that you must have a sales permit or license to sell your merchandise.

Does art legally qualify as merchandise too?

In the US, they're really strict with what kind of money flows in and out. It's not punishment for not making money, permits are more of a way of monitoring who is doing business where in the US... and if they're doing business, are they giving us our share of the profits? For an foreigner who applies for a temporary sales permit every year for the past ten years... and they report zero earnings... for an IRS guy who only looks at the permit and not necessarily what the permit is for... it looks really suspicious. In their POV, how do you know that this foreigner isn't some terrorist laundering money?

But how does any of this apply to a Canadian citizen?

I don't think cheques or money orders are a problem. That depends on the artists' preference on how they want to be paid. But Credit Cards are a different story. There are such things as manual credit card... sliding thingies with the carbon copy forms (I don't know what they're called). You don't need electricity to use them. Why is a credit card paying system a different story... because in order to acquire such an account, you need to be registered as a business. Visa, Mastercard, Amex, etc... they will not issue those to any ordinary joe smoe. So if you think about it, the "artists" selling stuff through this system is really a business. If you charge stuff through a credit card, there's a paper trail that needs to be filed to Revenue Canada. You have to declare all credit card sales as part of your income. Thus the reason why if you go to Kikiwai to buy your regular anime hit and they would only give you a "no tax" discount is if you pay cash. Cash without receipts does not leave a paper trail. And to quote Tim Horton's cash register... if you didn't get a receipt, your *something sale* is free (i.e. no receipt, no record of sale ever happening).

That's a good point, series of points actually, I'd forgotten about those!

As far as I know, the "professional" artists who inquired about this and Jess has already talked to are all agreeable to the conditions that if they were to get an artist alley table, they will be self-represented, i.e. they won't sell stuff that is available commercially. And these people who have contacted her privately are people who do draw for a living. So I personally don't understand why this issue is persisting in the message boards. If someone out there still has a problem with this situation, please come forward and let Jess know your concerns. No offense... because the way I see it... there's one person saying one thing on the message board and sees this as a problem, but there are like ten other people who e-mail her privately and don't see this as a problem. And personally, I don't really know if we're just explaining ourselves to death for the sake of one vocal person in the message board. And to be quite honest, instead of Jess and the others working on speeding the registration process, they're concentrating their energies on trying to "fix" this issue.

Huh? Just to be clear, I'm not representing anyone but me, I'm just trying to understand the situation, because I've realized I don't know a lot and I figured who else/better to ask? I am sorry for wasting staff time, but I thought there might be something constructive to be found in a public discussion so maybe there wouldn't be anyone repeating the same questions I had? And I think we must have different definitions of professional that are snarling things up, because I'm not talking about artists who are successful enough to make actual merchandise in the sense of involving factories and international retail wonderland, but the artists who are not just weekenders and hobbyists, those who are serious and do have a long-term goal of artistic self-sufficiency and may be light-years away from that.

In terms of the rules and the table and the way things have worked, I don't actually have a problem with any of that. What I have issue with is what seems to be arbitrary restrictions on which artists are welcome based on things like art style or medium used and maybe that's nothing more than a semantics misunderstanding. And I don't think I've said or suggested that my problems are universal problems, no way, I just wanted to hear someone else's thoughts and share my own. If a hundred people are privately (or hell, publically) all good with things, more power to them.

I'm sorry you feel things are being explained to death but please try to take pity on someone who has no real knowledge of the inner workings and only just does what she's told each year to get her table. A lot of this is new to me and my endless questions are just my attempts to be sure I understand what is being explained to me.

~Sunhawk
Fantasy art and feathers - www.sunhawk.ca

sunhawk girl

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Posts: 26

(03/04/08 03:38 AM)

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I wanted to reinterate seperately from the long, meandering reply I just made that I am genuinely sorry. It was not my intention to cause any trouble. I didn't mean to upset anyone or mislead anyone. I take full responsibility for my failure to communicate my thoughts clearly and accurately. My apologies.

~Sunhawk
Fantasy art and feathers - www.sunhawk.ca

AkitoSouma

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Posts: 28

(03/04/08 04:18 AM)

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I meant, artists trying to get in the AA who were successful enough to have their work sold by a big name company. I would think that artists that successful would not have trouble affording a Dealer's Room spot? I think in the end, when we talk professional and amateur, even though a professional is defined as one who does something for a living, those who aren't making enough of a living stay in the AA and the ones who do make enough get more space in the Dealer's room. Of course, there are still those trying to buck the system, but I think in general the system works.

Yes. They're still welcome to come to Alley, they just can't sell their commercial work. Studio Udon was an example of groups who have professional artists who featured work in the Artist Alley in the past. Though in my personal experience, a lot of those "successful" professional artists that you're referring to actually attend conventions because their publishing company brought them. So most likely, they will be in the dealer's room regardless. A lot of Artists of that level prefer to go to dealer's rooms because... that's where, I would say approximately 80-90% of the traffic of the entire convention go to. So of the 12,500 people who attended AN last year, I'd think at least 80% of that population would have passed by Dealer's Room at least once in the weekend. A couple of my artist friends from AX would actually pool their resources together and buy a space in the dealer's room. If you're gifted with a business sense along with your talent, and you find a way to offset the expenses from Dealer's room (like dividing cost the space between a large group and sitting on the table in shifts, and selling each other's art) ... not only do you economize your time, you're more likely to make a lot more money. And AN's Dealer's Room fees is chicken feed to how much AX charges for their dealer's room spaces (though to be fair, AX has more than twice our population). My friend never went back to Artist Alley after she and her group devised a system. But for that to work, you really need to have an art group and you need to develop a system amongst yourselves. Individual artists, unless you're really well known, will die in the Dealer's Room.

Does art legally qualify as merchandise too?

Hell yeah. Why do you think Picasso sells for multimillions of dollars? ^_^. But seriously... anything you sell is merchandise. Its just a matter of how you sell it. See Jess' earlier explanation about the loopholes in Revenue Canada that artists can take advantage of in an artist alley setting. I'm also a part of a non-profit theatre company and legally we're not allowed to sell CDs or DVDs of our performances. But there's a little loophole you can use that most non-profit organizations do for fundraising purposes. Theatre companies usually record one performance for archival purposes. They could tell their patrons... For a donation $20, we'll give you a free gift. A DVD recording of our so-and-so performance. Though artist alley doesn't really work with that idea in mind... but essentially, its the same mind set. "Help a starving artist? With a donation of $1, you get a free button, featuring my art!"

But how does any of this apply to a Canadian citizen?

If you're honest? You'll fill out the forms properly, declare your earnings and pay the US government the taxes you owe them. Not that different from a US citizen.

Again... I just want to make it a point that the idea behind the current system is not to alienate professional artists... but to protect artist alley from people who are actually businesses masquerading as artists. And like I mentioned earlier, as far as I know... the "professional" artists that Jess have talked to on e-mail had no problem with this.

Regina Simon
Liaisons Director
Anime North 2008

onlyseesred

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(03/04/08 05:26 AM)

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Okay, now I have to ask, what is a vendor defined as in this situation? Because I was under the impression that an artist selling their own work is not a vendor, not the in sense that a seller of retailed goods in the Dealer's room would be.

This is referring to artists participating in the alley for the purpose of making money rather than promoting and sharing their art. This has to do with intent and how people are using their Artist Alley space. It wouldn't be fair to the majority of AA participants who use their tables for the promotion of their art if they had to worry about overwhelming legal matters concerning selling at the tables (getting permits and such). In short, AA should be more about getting artists names out there rather than earning money.

But not all artists qualify as a small business under Canadian law, as I understand it, which that you have to make a certain amount yearly to qualify.

Hmn. I'll be the first to admit I'm not on top of what qualifies as a small business or not under Canadian law, but I think the conversation veered away from the original point. Whether or not the convention would have to follow Canadian or American regulations, the fact remains that getting a seller's permit would attract unwarranted attention and investigations from tax boards. All of that is completely unnecessary when, if someone could qualify as a vendor, they could simply take part in the designated Dealer room. It's basically a situation of keeping everything and everyone in their designated sections.

Mass sales? Where did you get mass sales from? I said I agreed with the other rules of the convention, which includes the whole "no more than 100 of anything" rule. I was protesting that people are saying artists that make money (any money at all since we haven't said any specific amount) at the convention shouldn't be there. I also did not protest the concept of artists using AA to promote themselves. And I was not the first person to bring up crafts and crafters, I was responding to what I have seen in other threads that suggested crafters and crafts were not welcome either, which I don't understand.

For lack of better phrasing, mass sales as in sales en masse, not mass production. Even if you're only selling 50 of any given item, it defeats the original intention of simply promoting art. Artists are free to make money, but that shouldn't be their sole intention for participating. Crafters are plenty welcome in AA, but it seems that many crafters are bringing up issues involving what they can sell because they seem more concerned with making money than promoting their work. By all means, this doesn't refer to all crafters!

I still don't understand how the intent of any individual in the AA defines the AA, it's the convention that defines the purpose of the AA and stays non-profit by not taking a percentage of the money made by the artists, at least as I understood their position in the past.

This is true. AA doesn't take a percentage of what the artists make, but that's not the only thing that defines it as non-profit. If the individuals are selling for profit, then AA is just hosting a bunch of vendors, which isn't its intention.

Before I answer your question, WHY do the dealer's spots cost that much more? If it's not for the extra space, what exactly is that extra money covering? And why would we want to make the alley an extension? And what does a permit cost? Are there different ones, one more for an artist than a retailer? We aren't talking about you proposing a single, uncomplicated decision, you are describing a massive overhaul that we do not know the details of nor what all the options are. At least I don't! I can't say what I want or what would be better until I have the full story.

I believe that's the point Jessica was trying to make. If people insist on their AA table being used to primarily sell stuff rather than promote art, we might as well just overhaul the whole thing and merge with the other vendors in the Dealer's room. No one's actually suggest we do this, since this would completely demolish everything AA should be.

Also, I can't answer those first few questions since I don't work for the dealers. What they charge and why isn't really anything the AA staff would know anything about, but I'm sure you could bring the question up in the Dealer's forum! It'd probably be good for people to know so they know exactly which department they qualify under.

This is not the case for all art, there is nothing inherent about the art of craft that makes it more prone to legal issues, I mean I don't protest if you use the phrase "cosplay crafters" but to use such a broad term like "crafters" or "craft" that applies to so many different artforms and methodologies is inaccurate, not to mention unfair to crafters who do none of those things but are being included because they make things with their hands.

True again if referring to the art of craft in general. However, in AA, crafters seem to bring up the legality issues more than other participants. It shouldn't sound mean; it's just the way it seems. Many want to sell things en masse (not related to the 100 and under rule; see above) and/or are bringing up issues on what they can and cannot sell. In no way are we implying it's all, or even most, crafters.

So why not remove that liability through the contract, the way that publishers do with the authors they publish or websites with the content they host?

Because this is not AA's responsibility. Doing this would cause AA to be vendor focused. We're trying to keep the vendor and selling related things in the Dealer's room and the self-promotion in Artist Alley.

Why get involved? The contract between artist and customer is between them, not you. You are not legally liable for someone having a problem with an artwork, so tell them to take it up with the artist. Any artist who tries to get you involved should be ashamed of themselves. Their artwork is their responsibility, not something they can blame on anyone else.

The fact remains that when people have issues with their payments, they will email the coordinator about it. Rather than making a huge issue over liability and rectifying sticky situations (and when money's involved, sticky is how it will be), it's best to just avoid what could cause the issues by leaving it all to cold hard cash.

Jax
Artist Alley Staff
eternalgameslave@gmail.com

Falcon

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Posts: 19

(03/04/08 12:50 PM)

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First of all, I do not like being accused of libel from someone (Sunhawk) who obviously has no idea what the term actually means. I did not name the studio nor the people involved AND I was speaking in generalities. Thus "libel" does not apply. Had I said, "I know for a fact Studio X are not paying their taxes" then you MIGHT be able to claim libel (assuming said statement is not true.) I don't know their finanical sitution. I don't know the studio name. I don't know if they are correctly filing their taxes. All I do know is that by allowing credit cards in an Artist Alley opens up a whole mess of worms the sponsors obviously don't want to be involved in. Anyway, I did some research on the subject of credit cards. At a large US Furcon last year (who asked me not to name them in this forum) they now have three sections for sales: 1. Amateur Alley which is for not-for-profit sales. Similiar to AN's alley with similar restrictions. Fan art is ok (no Disney) and no credit cards. 2. Artisians Alley which is for small businesses to sell ORIGINAL works of the registered studio only. No fan art or fan crafts AT ALL. Credit cards are allowed here but all merchants must have a seller's permit on display. 3. Dealer's room which is for businesses that resell other's works. They had a problem arise that forced them to split AA into two. Seems that some people who were in AA were using credit card machines (one person used a paypal account onsite) Since all credit cards are traceable, when the charges went through to the business and the business did not pay their taxes, the IRS went after the businesses. The businsesses then said, "AA didn't require us to show proof!" Which, was true, but it is not the AA (or the con's) responsibility to do so. Then the IRS went to the con and tore apart their books in a massive audit AND showed up at the next year's con to catch violators. When they did, they also caught bootlegers and some fan created works that caused a few companies (including Disney) to issue C&D letters. The con was all but shut down by the government because the CC people were not reporting their taxes. This time around, they have hired legal counsel to assist in writing their contracts and a private security force (not con ops but off-duty policemen) to kick out violators. Do I see a problem with checks? No. Checks are not instantly traceable like credit cards. If an artist wanted to accept checks, power to them, but if they check is bad, you're pretty much screwed. My two cents.

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