What is the Artist's Alley?

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sunhawk girl	What is the Artist's Alley?	Lead	[-]
Posts: 13 (03/03/08 03:05 AM) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Tags : None This may sound like a newbie question but in fact I have been around for a number of cons and had my table and all that, but after reading some of the new rules and regulations (being aware that not all of them are new rules and regs) I have realized that maybe I'm unclear what purpose exactly the AA is supposed to serve. So instead of trying to guess, I thought I'd ask those in the know what the official and full description of the Artist's Alley. Because when I started out, all I was aware of was that it was a place to sell/share art of an anime/illustrative related type stuff, and there have been references to legal constrictions and non-profit status that imply it's more complicated than that (maybe much more) so I think would be good to explain clearly and fully for all of us Thanks! ~Sunhawk Fantasy art and feathers - www.sunhawk.ca
Yohrue		#1	[-]
Posts: 303 (03/03/08 07:26 AM) Artist Alley Staff More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	That was the original definition of an artist alley until a few years ago when hand made crafts became more active as it is a form of art. Instead of phasing them out, it was to give them a fair chance as the illustrative artists but aside crafts, the complicated ruling on cosplay reproduction began. But then, Anime became more main stream and also became apparent that Conventions do make money (which each convention does vary as to what they do with the profit - AN's purpose is Sick Kid's Hospital), and corporate names and even the Provincial tax boards and such groups began to turn to their direction . So once these groups got involved, conventions are being forced to cover their bases so no lawsuits could be tossed their way. And while somehow, I got this understanding that people think that act is silly... but I think conventions prefer not to get C&Ds and lawsuit warnings at all than wait to be given those, then act accordingly to respect the Laws legislated by their government. Right now, the only Artist Alley I know that actually acts as an actual artist alley is Yaoi-con. Correct me on this if I'm wrong but I believe they only permit the sale of commission work, which would then be considered as a service, more so than a sale. Otherwise, I think they throw you in the dealers if you want to sell something more (buttons, shirts, etc). Jessica Simon AN Artist Alley Director kouken_sasarai[at]hotmail[dot]com
Falcon		#2	[-]
Posts: 17 (03/03/08 01:59 PM) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I'm not AN staff but I have run some AAs in the US and participated in them since 1998. Also, I apologize if this sounds harsh but my tone on the internet is often misinterpreted. I see artist alley as place where self representing, amateur artists can promote their work and sell their wares. I also believe it should be "not-for-profit." I know some people make a little bit of money but your purpose should not be going there to make enough money to clear your rent. Your purpose should be exposure and networking. It's definitely not for professionals, especially since fan art is a really gray area. It also shouldn't be a cheap way to get out of having to pay for a dealer's table...it should be ART. Now, some people say the cosplay/lolita accessories are "art" and while I generally agree there is some artistic talent required to create them, I believe they are more CRAFTS. Still, if this AA allows them, so be it. Another thing. I wasn't in the Alley last year but I walked around a good bit and spent some money. There were things there that didn't feel "right" to me that were being sold last year. There were two girls selling resin (?) dragons. They had a credit card machine which means that they also must have the Canadian eqvialent of a US Tax ID number. This means they are a business. Self-representing, yes. But not amateur and certainly not "not-for-profit." I don't think they belong in AA. Another woman was selling Tshirts. She was taking "custom" orders, asking people what they wanted printed on a black tshirts. Most of them just said "Will Yuri for Yaoi" or some other random phrase. She had people working behind a screen and the staff came by a few times and told them to get out. As soon as the staff left, they were right back there making more tshirts. This doesnt seem to be in the spirit of Artist Alley either. This just seems to be a way to turn a quick buck. It doesn't even really seem like art. It's just a tshirt with some words printed on it. Another person I saw there was selling wallets. The wallets were pretty cool and I asked if the dragon on there had been drawn by her. She said no, it was her friend's art and she was just putting the art on the wallets. I asked for her friend's website/DA name/etc. She said she didn't know any of those things. That sounded fishy to me. This is not self-representing (and quite possibly art theft) Non-profit means a charity Not-for-profit means not intending to make a business out of it. And there's my two cents.
AkitoSouma		#3	[-]
Posts: 23 (03/03/08 02:34 PM) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Before anything else, I just want to make it clear that this is my personal take on the whole thing as an outsider watching the events unfold since my sister took over Alley and my opinion is not necessarily shared by AN or the AN Artist Alley Staff... Essentially, aside from the fact that Anime North has grown to the point that we have attracted the government's attention and is basically being seen as a big cash cow for our government taxes coffers, media recognition about us has also grown significantly. While its a great thing overall, this exposure also makes us vulnerable at the same time. In other words, we need to make sure that glaring headlines like "Anime North encourages bootleg merchandize" don't ever show up in the newspaper. I know that there are a lot of artists out there reasoning that "this doesn't happen in so-and-so convention", "Convention A lets artists do this..." AN staff have no control over how other conventions run their Artist Alleys so other conventions are free to run their Alleys as they see fit the same as AN is free to decide on how to run ours. I'm very confident to say that compared to the other Artist Alleys I've visited (and I've heard about), AN's Artist Alley definitely has something unique and dynamic and it won't be fair to lump it with Aritst Alleys from other conventions. To sum everything in this paragraph, well... essentially their rules won't necessarily apply to us and vice versa. Remember when the current AN staff created and introduced this current system a couple of years ago, there was a big backlash of ressistance from artists who were used to the old system and were vocally against letting the new system from it being implemented. Well, its been four or five years since the new system was implemented, with 4-5 years of constant evolution and I think the Alley has slowly gotten better... to the point that AN's Artist Alley has become the gold standard on how to organize Artist Alley. She's going to get mad at me for saying this, but Jess doesn't stop working when it comes to improving her Alley. She actually goes to different conventions in both the US and Canada (big and small) for the sake of studying how their artist alley works... what works and what doesn't. She has even encountered a few conventions (who's names we will not mention here ^_^.) who literally copied and pasted the AN Artist Alley policy and claimed it as their own without permission from the AN staff who wrote it. So what is the point of this message? Well, its this... The definition of the Artist Alley will constantly change and evolve as needs and circumstances surrounding the Alley, the Con, and anime & manga in general changes year to year. Even AN's artist alley has evolved into something completely different when we first got involved with it. It was way back in the day AN was still being held in the Ramada in the Jane & Lawrence area. Back then, the only thing you can do in Artist Alley were draw comissions, sell prints & bookmarks, & hangout with other artists. Art in general has exploded into new avenues, and I think its really silly to go back to the "former definition" of what AN Artist Alley was. And each year, Alley encounters "new challenges" and for sure that will be taken into account when putting in changes for Alley next year. That's why its really important for you guys participating to actively put in your opinions and better yet, give suggestions on how Artist Alley can be improved after the con is done. And because the definition of what's involved in Artist Alley also potentially changes every year, its also very important for you guys to read the policies and note the yearly changes before you sign them. Because we have had angry mothers coming to Jessica re: something in the Alley only to find out that their kids were complaining over things that they signed and agreed on the contract, but didn't read. Just my two yen... Regina Simon AN Liaisons Director 2008
sunhawk girl		#4	[-]
Posts: 14 (03/03/08 04:09 PM) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Thank you for your informative answer, I just have some questions based on your response. First of all, I don't get why crafters make the difference? I'm glad you decided to include them, as I feel they add depth and variety to the convention, but as someone who dabbles in crafts such as jewelry-making and non-specific cosplay type stuff (ie not articles copied from a specific series or movie) it seems a bit misleading to suggest all crafters make trademark-related cosplay gear that would bring any kind of legal headache. In past years, I've seen people make animal ears and tails, gothic loli-related items and clothing, as well as original jewelry, none of which would bring any sort of trademark issue with them. As well, non-craft illustrative works can be just as much of an issue in terms of trademark and trade dress, so I'm just wondering what you feel it is about crafters that makes them more of a concern. I get what you mean about anime becoming more mainstream and events like conventions becoming more scrutinized. It's just that I've worked trade shows where the issue of an artist making a profit wasn't a problem, it's what you are paying your table fee to have a chance to try. I feel there is some confusion between the issue of fanart as it relates to trademark/tradedress and that of successful artists becoming a part of the Artist's Alley. The two are not mutually exclusive. I mean, it's called Artist's Alley, not Amateur Artist's Alley or Hobbyist's Alley, so it would suggest that all artists are welcome as long as they are artists, as long as they are sharing artwork created by their own hands. Other conventions welcome and encourage successful artists to be a part of their Artist's Alley, which I think makes the AA more interesting for con-goers and benefits everyone overall. And if they are selling completely original works, there isn't any issue of C&D's or lawsuits. If AnimeNorth itself runs officially as non-profit (does it do so legally? Is it registered as such?) then I believe that is a seperate issue from providing space for artists to sell art, just like a church can provide space for a craft sale and not be considered a profit-based organization. And if C&D or lawsuit type interactions occur, that would be between the artist themself and the other party. Perhaps I am thinking of another convention, but is there not a part of our contract that indemnifies Animenorth from any legal action taken against a specific artist at the convention? If it doesn't, I would think a clause like that would help keep AN staff from being bogged down by disputed that have nothing to do with them directly. I understand that these rules are in place to try to protect everyone and avoid headaches, but I feel that the criteria being used doesn't make sense to me with the information I have as a non-staff member and artist who has participated at AA for about five years. Maybe you can point out what I'm missing here ~Sunhawk Fantasy art and feathers - www.sunhawk.ca
sunhawk.sgbbsers		#5	[-]
Posts: 1 (03/03/08 04:10 PM) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	^ That reply there is for Yohrue, just now I noticed other people have since replied LOL Going to read them now
sunhawk girl		#6	[-]
Posts: 15 (03/03/08 04:27 PM) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Falcon wrote: I'm not AN staff but I have run some AAs in the US and participated in them since 1998. Also, I apologize if this sounds harsh but my tone on the internet is often misinterpreted. I see artist alley as place where self representing, amateur artists can promote their work and sell their wares. I also believe it should be "not-for-profit." I know some people make a little bit of money but your purpose should not be going there to make enough money to clear your rent. Your purpose should be exposure and networking. It's definitely not for professionals, especially since fan art is a really gray area. It also shouldn't be a cheap way to get out of having to pay for a dealer's table...it should be ART. Now, some people say the cosplay/lolita accessories are "art" and while I generally agree there is some artistic talent required to create them, I believe they are more CRAFTS. Still, if this AA allows them, so be it. Another thing. I wasn't in the Alley last year but I walked around a good bit and spent some money. There were things there that didn't feel "right" to me that were being sold last year. There were two girls selling resin (?) dragons. They had a credit card machine which means that they also must have the Canadian eqvialent of a US Tax ID number. This means they are a business. Self-representing, yes. But not amateur and certainly not "not-for-profit." I don't think they belong in AA. Another woman was selling Tshirts. She was taking "custom" orders, asking people what they wanted printed on a black tshirts. Most of them just said "Will Yuri for Yaoi" or some other random phrase. She had people working behind a screen and the staff came by a few times and told them to get out. As soon as the staff left, they were right back there making more tshirts. This doesnt seem to be in the spirit of Artist Alley either. This just seems to be a way to turn a quick buck. It doesn't even really seem like art. It's just a tshirt with some words printed on it. Another person I saw there was selling wallets. The wallets were pretty cool and I asked if the dragon on there had been drawn by her. She said no, it was her friend's art and she was just putting the art on the wallets. I asked for her friend's website/DA name/etc. She said she didn't know any of those things. That sounded fishy to me. This is not self-representing (and quite possibly art theft) Non-profit means a charity Not-for-profit means not intending to make a business out of it. And there's my two cents. I don't understand at all why people are so against professional artists who are at the convention to make money as well as network and promote themselves. I feel like people have this idea that once you are professional, it means you are on the easy road to success where they don't deserve to have a chance with everyone else, like we are punishing them for being successful. Being a professional artist does not make one automatically successful, it doesn't make one automatically a business, with staff and an office building, heck it doesn't even mean you make enough money to legally count as a small business. The artists I know who do make enough money to pay rent are generally making just that: barely covering rent, a little left over for food, a lot of which is generally sacrificed for art supplies. The stereotype of "starving artist" does apply to the real world and many artists who work conventions for profit also have day jobs as not every convention brings in enough, it's rarely reliable means of financial gain. And if you happen to be a fantasy artist or comic artist, where else do they have to go? Art galleries don't generally want much to do with them, craft shows like the one of a kind show are really expensive for those without artist groups or a working studio, if they aren't welcome at conventions, where else do you propose they try to sell their art? I would think someone who is familiar with AA's in the US would be aware that many professional artists consider them acceptable means of making money. They don't seem to have this issue at fantasy cons or fur cons or even other anime cons, why do we feel the need to make it harder for Canadian artists? Crafts are most definitely art, they are one of the oldest forms of art and it's disappointing to see that "crafts aren't art" mentality here, when crafters get it enough from the art world. My friend makes those dragons, which are not resin but every single one of them was made and painted by hand. I won't comment on her payment methods because I think those are her business and between her and the government. Again, we punish artists for being successful and I know personally that many people love her dragons and look forward to seeing her at the AA each year, so they can see what new things she's got. That is one of the best parts about the AA, that people come back again the next year looking for your work and are excited to see you, if that isn't networking then I don't know what is! Having professional artists who make beautiful works should be seen as an asset to the AA, not as some sort of bad thing, especially if they are creating 100% original works made by their own hands. There are always going to be a few fishy characters in the AA, a few people who see the success of some artists and want to have it for themselves. But those people are not anywhere in the same league as a true artist and true artists shouldn't be punished for that. ~Sunhawk Fantasy art and feathers - www.sunhawk.ca
sunhawk girl		#7	[-]
Posts: 16 (03/03/08 04:37 PM) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	AkitoSouma wrote: Before anything else, I just want to make it clear that this is my personal take on the whole thing as an outsider watching the events unfold since my sister took over Alley and my opinion is not necessarily shared by AN or the AN Artist Alley Staff... Essentially, aside from the fact that Anime North has grown to the point that we have attracted the government's attention and is basically being seen as a big cash cow for our government taxes coffers, media recognition about us has also grown significantly. While its a great thing overall, this exposure also makes us vulnerable at the same time. In other words, we need to make sure that glaring headlines like "Anime North encourages bootleg merchandize" don't ever show up in the newspaper. I know that there are a lot of artists out there reasoning that "this doesn't happen in so-and-so convention", "Convention A lets artists do this..." AN staff have no control over how other conventions run their Artist Alleys so other conventions are free to run their Alleys as they see fit the same as AN is free to decide on how to run ours. I'm very confident to say that compared to the other Artist Alleys I've visited (and I've heard about), AN's Artist Alley definitely has something unique and dynamic and it won't be fair to lump it with Aritst Alleys from other conventions. To sum everything in this paragraph, well... essentially their rules won't necessarily apply to us and vice versa. Remember when the current AN staff created and introduced this current system a couple of years ago, there was a big backlash of ressistance from artists who were used to the old system and were vocally against letting the new system from it being implemented. Well, its been four or five years since the new system was implemented, with 4-5 years of constant evolution and I think the Alley has slowly gotten better... to the point that AN's Artist Alley has become the gold standard on how to organize Artist Alley. She's going to get mad at me for saying this, but Jess doesn't stop working when it comes to improving her Alley. She actually goes to different conventions in both the US and Canada (big and small) for the sake of studying how their artist alley works... what works and what doesn't. She has even encountered a few conventions (who's names we will not mention here ^_^.) who literally copied and pasted the AN Artist Alley policy and claimed it as their own without permission from the AN staff who wrote it. So what is the point of this message? Well, its this... The definition of the Artist Alley will constantly change and evolve as needs and circumstances surrounding the Alley, the Con, and anime & manga in general changes year to year. Even AN's artist alley has evolved into something completely different when we first got involved with it. It was way back in the day AN was still being held in the Ramada in the Jane & Lawrence area. Back then, the only thing you can do in Artist Alley were draw comissions, sell prints & bookmarks, & hangout with other artists. Art in general has exploded into new avenues, and I think its really silly to go back to the "former definition" of what AN Artist Alley was. And each year, Alley encounters "new challenges" and for sure that will be taken into account when putting in changes for Alley next year. That's why its really important for you guys participating to actively put in your opinions and better yet, give suggestions on how Artist Alley can be improved after the con is done. And because the definition of what's involved in Artist Alley also potentially changes every year, its also very important for you guys to read the policies and note the yearly changes before you sign them. Because we have had angry mothers coming to Jessica re: something in the Alley only to find out that their kids were complaining over things that they signed and agreed on the contract, but didn't read. Just my two yen... Regina Simon AN Liaisons Director 2008 I definitely think it's important to communicate and I hope that we always keep the lines of communication open, I think it goes a long way to give artists the feeling they are involved in the process rather than giving the impression of "These are the rules, either like it or lump it" sort of non-empathy. It's nice to know that things are not set in stone forever and that we can work together to try to make the AA run as smoothly as possible and benefit as many people as can reasonably be done. I think at heart, 99% of people in the AA (artists or volunteers) all want the same thing, which is to make the AA a success and for everyone to have a good time. I also think that encouraging artists who take their work and working the convention seriously goes a long way, that we shouldn't be trying to separate the professionals from the amateurs, because the professionals can be great role models for those unaware of how to work a con or what is appropriate art to make for the con, etc. People keep focusing on the non-profit issue but I think that if you want a certain level of professionalism, maturity and flexibility, you need to welcome those who may be in the game for profit but as a result have picked up a lot of good habits they can pass on, that artists can mentor other artists and help self-police ourselves. Nothing gets people to stop being silly than relying on something to keep food on the table, it tends to weed out the flakes and the lazy. Man that angry mother thing keeps coming up, I am starting to want a phone transcript of the conversation! LOL
AkitoSouma		#8	[-]
Posts: 24 (03/03/08 05:18 PM) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Jess will be able to elaborate more on your question since she is more familiar with Canadian Law and copyright and all that other stuff... Your suggestions are really plausible and I'm sure Jess and her staff will take a note of them. There are a couple of issues here and I'm actually not an artist anymore but rather more on the POV of the practical business of things. First of all, apparently, there has been the issue is that we are seeing more and more incidents of people who are actually companies and dealers trying to disguise their merchandize as "art" and are trying to score cheaper tables at the Artist Alley instead of the Dealer's Room, which I heard is more illusive with getting tables there than in Artist Alley... thus the reason why some dealers are trying their luck to see if they can score a space (and a cheaper one to boot) in artist alley. This being said, I is not really about crafts being considered art... but rather the definition between crafts that are "art" vs "replica". Unfortunately, cosplay items in general, whether they are handmade or commercially produced, etc... are created for the sole purpose of replicating another person's art. Unless your cosplay items are based on costumes of characters that you created, trying to sell cosplay items, in essence, is really an infringement of copyright. Mind you, I'm biased. I'm actually more of an artisan than an artist (and I adore "One of a Kind" trade shows). Personally, I think all crafts that should be sold in a setting like Artist Alley should be like that... "one of a kind" unique items, rather things that are copied or be easily mass produced. In a way, that's one of the things I can think of to slow down people who otherwise will find means abuse the current system. When I go to anime conventions, I don't bother going to the dealer's room. I go straight to the artist alley and try to score as much unique items, art and local doujinshi I could find. Let's face it, people who go to Artist Alley are people who want unique items anyway. So why would you want to transform Alley into a mini-cheaper-dealer's room? Second, I just wanted to make a point (and please don't take this as twisting your words. ^_^.). I personally feel that what makes Artist Alley different from the other Alleys in other conventions and spaces from trade shows is that the AN Staff is trying very hard to make the Alley feel more like an artist community where an artist, regardless of being a professional or amateur, can feel safe in an environment showcasing their art. One of the nicest things that Jess shared with me was how one over-protective parent, who was initially weary of letting her child join Artist Alley, actually wrote a wonderful e-mail to her about how she appreciated the staff's efforts to make sure that the alley's environment was fun and safe. I mean it's very easy to have artists sign a waiver stating that AN is not responsible for what they sell so if C&D orders do come in, AN has nothing to do with it, its between the artist and the company. But I don't think that's the direction that the current AN staff wants to go. While they can't (and have no desire to) control everything that gets sold in the alley, it doesn't seem ethical that you would put someone, whether they're an amateur or profession artist, in a situation that can be potentially devastating to your career and to your reputation when there was something you can do to prevent it. Now that aside... I personally think that Alley staff are not asking artists to stop making and selling crafts in the alley. They're simply asking you not to sell crafts that are obvious replications of official merchandise that can get you and the event that allowed you to sell this, in trouble. And again, in the business POV side of things... I don't really understand why it that idea seems illogical. Regina Simon Liaisons Director Anime North 2008
AkitoSouma		#9	[-]
Posts: 25 (03/03/08 05:24 PM) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	P.S. In my haste to post, I forgot to mention a point... its unfortunate that professional artists are caught in the backlash because of people who actually need to be in the dealer's room are doing things to abuse the system. But mind you... professional artists also have another option in AN that is not readily available to amateur artists (sadly)... And that is to apply to become a programming guest. That's like ultimate exposure, because not only will you be talking about your art and company, your fanbase will rise dramatically too. I mean its true that, Scott Ramsomair was already pretty popular before, but his fame skyrocketed to infamy after he came to AN as a guest. Regina Simon Liaisons Director Anime North 2008
Falcon		#10	[-]
Posts: 18 (03/03/08 05:59 PM) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Sunhawk: [Being a professional artist does not make one automatically successful, it doesn't make one automatically a business, with staff and an office building, heck it doesn't even mean you make enough money to legally count as a small business. ] But if you are counting this income on income taxes you are a small business and SHOULD be collecting tax from those you sell from (in US terms...I don't know Canadian Law) Many US cons are now requiring tax permits and/or work permits from AA members in an effort to "cover their rears." This way, if a professional artist fails to pay Uncle Sam his "fair" share, the con is not liable for tax evasion--the artist is. In this sense, I feel that "professional artists" (ie: those making a living and income off their art) do not belong in AA. [I would think someone who is familiar with AA's in the US would be aware that many professional artists consider them acceptable means of making money. They don't seem to have this issue at fantasy cons or fur cons or even other anime cons, why do we feel the need to make it harder for Canadian artists?] I am familiar with many cons (fur and fantasy, too) and a good number of them are changing their rules to prevent getting slapped with tax evasion notices. Yes...it happens. Why? Because "starving artists" tend to forget that like everyone else in the world, they do have to pay taxes. I'm also not saying make it harder for Canadian artists. I have nothing to do with this AA. I am just telling you about the ones I am familiar with. The AN AA is rather liberal compared to many others LARGE cons. Sure, there are some small cons where you can get away with selling doujins you didn't even draw...but those are not the ones I'm talking about here. [I won't comment on her payment methods because I think those are her business and between her and the government. Again, we punish artists for being successful and I know personally that many people love her dragons and look forward to seeing her at the AA each year, so they can see what new things she's got.] Her dragons may be beautiful but she doesn't have any more of a right to scam the government out of taxes than I do by lying on my tax returns. You follow? I don't think it's "punishing" artists for being successful; it's following the LAW. Anime North has to cover it's own butt and if telling people who are skirting the Tax Man (whatever you call it Canada) to move to the dealer's room where work permits and such are checked, then so be it. Or, would you rather see AA go the way of Anime Fest and require tax permits and work permits for everyone--even those under 16? My two cents.

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What is the Artist's Alley?

What is the Artist's Alley?